On Wednesday 23rd May we hosted our first live Ethimex Webinar. Hosted by Charlie Pountney with guest speaker and product expert Bert Albrecht the topic of the webinar was: Is GNS all the same?
You can watch the full playback of the webinar above, which we have reformatted into a Q&A style blog with Bert for those who prefer to digest the content in a written format. We hope you find the topics discussed interesting and please feel free to contact us with any further questions or enquiries.
That just leaves me to welcome everyone to this webinar series, the first one from Ethimex.
This is volume one, Is Grain Neutral Spirit All the Same? Today we’re delighted to be joined by my colleague Bert Albrecht from Ethimex.
We [Ethimex Ltd] are an internationally recognized, leading global company sourcing premium ethanol and spirits including whiskey, new and used casks, and botanicals, being founded by Charles Edge in 1999.
Our topic expert today is Bert Albrecht. Bert is our UK manager here at Ethimex. And with a background in engineering, Bert has spent a lot of his career in sales in distribution of specialized chemicals before joining Ethimex to grow our UK spirits and ethanol distribution business. With this engineering and chemical background, Bert’s become somewhat of a go-to expert on GNS in the UK distilling scene, so we are really pleased to have Bert as our expert today.
Let’s kick off with a question for you, Bert.
Is there really a difference between neutral spirits? And if so, how much is this difference and is it worth considering?
Yes, it’s a fair question actually because you would think ethanol is ethanol, it’s just a chemical. Now the reality is that ethanol, as you might imagine, only exist on paper. What we work with day-to-day is quite a different animal.
So if you look at the day-to-day ethanol, what do we have? We’ve got about 96% of pure ethanol. Now this is in the UK and Europe. This is a legal requirement to be able to call it neutral spirit. So we need 96% of alcohol or ethanol. Then we’ve got about 4% of water and then we’ve got a tiny, tiny little bit of something else. Let’s call it impurities. But I can tell you already that these impurities, that’s what makes a difference and that’s what offers as a whole array of ethanols. And these are directly linked to the feedstock.
Now, for the safety of the ethanol, these impurities are limited. So we’ve got a legal limit on eight of these in the UK. The most dangerous, I would say, is methanol. So the methanol level in the GNS or the neutral spirit is quite important.
For agricultural ethanol, this is limited to 30 grams per hectoliter, pure alcohol. If you look then for vodka in particular, this goes down to 10 grams. And then for London Dry gin, not distilled gin, but London Dry gin specifically, the limit is lower again and we’re talking about five grams per hectoliter of pure alcohol.
Now, to put this in perspective, it shouldn’t scare you if are on the upper limit, if you are near the 30 grams per hectoliter because in the end, if you look at tequila for example, tequila has to have methanol in it by law. And the maximum or the upper level is 300 grams per hectoliter. So we’re talking about 10 times more. So for ethanol, we are definitely on the safe side.
What else can I say about these impurities? They offer us the variety. We are going to focus a little bit more on the esters and the aldehydes and the high alcohols because these are the ones that actually bring the variety and the difference to the table.
I think if you’re looking at the different styles of ethanol, at first it might be looking at different samples of white paint, and what’s the difference? But in the end, I think the most prevalent example of these differences is reflected in the vodka. I think vodka is the closest spirit that we have that is as close as possible to ethanol as it can be.
There are many different vodkas, but they’re all based on a different feedstock. So if you go to a bar, especially to a cocktail bar, let’s say, or quite a refined bar, you will find quite a range vodkas. And the main difference, for me at least, will be the features that will be the base spirit. If you then talk to the bartenders or you see how they go to work, you will notice that they use different vodkas for different cocktails and there’s a good reason for this.
You may also notice that in some, especially the alcohol-heavy cocktails, that they’re using two vodkas within the same cocktail. You might think about, “What’s the point of this? Vodka is vodka is vodka.” But actually, the different feedstock will bring different aspects to the cocktail. I’m talking here about integration and not so much about flavor but also about texture and mouth feel. And if you have a vodka that has a longer aftertaste and you bring it into the cocktail, you’re going to have a different experience than when you have, let’s say for example, a wheat vodka is quite snappy and quite short. It’s going to be a different experience. And I think the vodka in this case reflects these differences in the ethanol quite clearly.
So on the raw spirit, in the UK and Europe, ethyl alcohol typically is distilled to at least 96% and that’s considered organoleptically neutral. But why is it 96% and not 97, 99 or even above that?
Yeah, that’s a good question because in the end you will find ethanol available on the market at 99%, even 99.9%. So, why not make the spirit more pure by distilling it further?
In reality, you will find, even though there’s a legal limit, the legal minimum is 96%, in the market you will find ethanols that are typically 96.2%, 96.5%. But of course, if the minimum is 96%, there will be a cost aspect involved, then why distilling any further than you have to?
At the same time it becomes quite hard to distill any further because as you approach the 96%, you’re also approaching the azeotrope between water and ethanol. The azeotrope means that you have a constant boiling point. As a result, you can’t separate the alcohol from the water any longer by simple distillation. Now, because of this, historically it makes sense. The number 96 makes sense because it would be quite hard, especially a few decades back, to go beyond that number. Nowadays, we have technology that allows us to go up to 99.9%. Some of these are not suitable for the beverage. So you can’t just add benzene our sulfuric acid to the mix because that would render it non-potable.
But at the same time, you still have the molecular sieves that can do the job and we can indeed produce a nice, fine, pure spirit. But of course, the main reason is the cost implication there.
Let’s talk a little bit about the feedstock. That’s one of the key considerations, isn’t it? Why is it that wheat is so popular, and out of that, why winter wheat?
Yes, it’s a question that comes up and people wonder why wheat and why winter wheat. Now, the fact that wheat is popular, first of all we have to say that wheat is popular here. Here, meaning in the UK and in Europe. The reason is because it’s widely available. The climate allows for it, it’s perfect conditions for wheat. But if you go to the [United] States, for example, you will find that corn is the is more popular one. We know from experience that if wheat is required in the States, often it will be imported from Europe.
Then if you look at the globe and you look at the line, the Tropic of Cancer, anything below it, you will find that in these places sugarcane is the more popular base for spirits. So it’s really the reason why wheat is so popular here is geographical and it’s really to do with the climate.
And then your question about winter wheat, Charlie, first of all winter wheat is a variety of the wheat that is planted or sown in autumn. Then the seed starts germinating and the plant starts to grow. But then as soon as the winter hits, as the cold hits, the plant goes dormant. Now in this dormant period, we have a vernalization and this results in a higher content of fermentable sugars. Basically, it’s higher yield. And basically, the reason for winter wheat is the yield or the return on your investment, really.
Spring wheat, it is used, but very rarely, not so much in beverage. It’s used for some tender cakes and pastries where protein is less important because there’s also less protein in the spring wheat.
Between Spring Wheat and Winter Wheat it’s a purely economic decision. If you look at the land, the availability of the land, you’ve got more return of your winter wheat and of your spring wheat. But it doesn’t do anything to the flavor, though. There’s no benefit there. It’s not a different profile. I would be surprised that anyone could distinguish the two styles from each other.
And in terms of, let’s say, in the UK choosing wheat over grape spirit, is that just a cultural availability thing?
Yes, because wheat is so widely available. First of all, it’s not seasonal, it’s very easy to store wheat. If you compare to grapes, it’s more difficult. And also grape, as an example you cited, is seasonal. So you will find at the end of the season there might be a shortage or a surplus. We don’t know in advance. You are also much more weather dependent because the harvest is smaller. And then within the grapes you are competing with different industries, mainly the one industry, but also the brandies and the grape-based liquors.
And on a similar point, wheat alcohol, is that suitable for gluten intolerance? We get that question a lot.
Yes, indeed. And that’s a very good question to ask. Now in terms of alcohol, it is accepted that spirits distilled to the level of neutral spirit, definitely they are safe for people on a gluten-free diet.
The acceptable level that goes around in industry is 20 ppm, so 20 parts per million of gluten. And that should be safe for people on a gluten-free diet. We checked this with Coeliac Awareness, they have confirmed that is actually the case. Actually, we had a meeting with them. Then we asked, “Okay, if our ethanol is gluten-free, can we have your logo? Can we have a stamp on it that says this is a gluten-free product?” And they said no, because the only products that can have this label are products that normally have gluten in them, say for example, bread or cookies or pastries, that you would expect them to have gluten in. They might also have a gluten-free version and that’s where the certification or the qualification comes in.
Now, another thing of course is how does this translate to the wider audience? If people say: “It’s a wheat vodka and I’m gluten intolerant. Maybe I won’t have this, then.” They might not be aware of the distillation process where everything is extracted. So some producers definitely use this information in their marketing to say, “Okay, we offer spirits based on grape, potato, apples,” clearly products that don’t have gluten in them.
Another type of spirit category is the organic. Does organic spirit affect the flavor profile in any way?
No, it doesn’t actually. Organic is more to do with the production methods. One of the things is the production. During the cultivation of the ingredients, you can’t use synthetic chemicals or pesticides or GMO, genetically modified organisms, they can’t be used.
And secondly, there has to be a clear segregation in the production if there is organic and non-organic. It has to be clearly separated.
And then thirdly, you have to provide traceability of all the ingredients that you’re using in your product.
Bringing this bit wider, not just ethanol per say, for example gin. It’s not just a neutral spirit that needs to be organic, but also your botanical. So it’s the whole lot. But no, it won’t affect the flavor or the profile at all.
This is the same for other certifications like say kosher or sustainability or fair trade. These are separate from the actual product or the feedstock that you are you’re looking at.
We’ve had a question in about impurities in vodka. It’s from Amal, who asks: “What is this specification of total impurities for the highest-quality vodka grade GNS?”
The highest quality? Actually there’s only a limit for the maximum limitation of the impurities. So in the EU and the UK, we have eight categories of impurities that will be controlled. Methanol is the most important one, and this is true across the whole range of feedstock. So it doesn’t specify whether it’s grape or it’s potato. It applies to ethanol of agricultural origin. So anything that is made from plants has to abide by these rules.
I’ve got a list of eight here. There’s control of acidity, you’ve got the esters, then you’ve got the aldehydes, and the high alcohols, the methanol is controlled, also the solids. You’ve got the drags extract, which is the solids, and then nitrogen as well. And peripheral also.
There are limitations set for [impurities in] ethanol across the board, disregarding the feedstock, really. It’s true that some feedstock will bring different challenges. For example, if you look at potato, potato is quite heavy on methanol. Because of the feedstock, they have a lot of methanol in them. So during distillation, often potato distillers will use a dimethyl column, a separate column just specifically to take out the methanol because they also have to be within that range. And then as I mentioned previously, depending on how you want to use the spirit, you might find that your limit is 30 grams per hectoliter per alcohol. This is for all the spirits. Now if you want specifically for vodka in Europe and for gin, London Dry gin, which goes down to five milligrams. So the methanol is by far the most important.
If I can say something about the three more popular impurities, which are the esters and the aldehydes and the high alcohols, sometimes they’re favored because they actually bring more character to the table. They bring the character or the feel of the feedstock in the spirit. Because in the end, as you’re driving up the ABV, alcohol by volume, when you’re distilling, you’re stripping the alcohol of all the impurities but also all the flavor: the color goes, the flavor goes as much as possible. The higher this ABV goes, the more neutral your spirit will become.
If you then consider different spirits like rum or whiskey, they deliberately will not distill to up to 96. And the reason is to keep the character, to maintain the character, and to maintain the input from that feedstock to come through in the final product.
How much taste of the actual base spirit is left after diluting with tonic water, for instance. So it’s probably a question that maybe we could cover as well.
Yes, that’s a question that we get a lot. It’s a fair question but at the same time I would say it’s maybe not the right question to ask because we are talking about gin and tonic I imagine. So it’s not so much that the base spirit will be masked or covered by, first of all the botanicals, and then secondly by the tonic that you add to your gin and tonic.
It’s more about the fact that base spirit is not just about flavor. There’s a lot more to base than just the flavor. We also have the aroma and we have the texture and then we have the depth of the base.
Now, if you look at gin and tonic, let’s break it down. First we have the gin and then we have the tonic. So if you look at the gin. For gin, you could use a very neutral base, very clean, very low on impurities and then you could use almost as a blank canvas to create or develop your gin, let the botanical shine.
Or, you could use a base that has a bit more character. And in that case the base almost becomes a botanical itself. So it’s part of the botanicals in your botanicals build. Now, regardless of whether you use a very clean GNS or you use a GNS with a bit of character, you’re still going to have to accept that each base will interact differently with each botanical. Sometimes, when I talk to distillers they say, “Oh, it took me 35 recipes or tries before I got to my final recipe.” Imagine if I told you this distiller, “Look, that’s fine. Now we’re going to change your base.” I don’t think they will be happy because they’re going to have to start from scratch. They have to start all the way again because a different base will have a different impact on botanicals.
Some bases, you will find, they will emphasize or they will work with certain botanical, and others they will compete, they will have similar input and it will really draw back or pull back the effect of the botanical. I’m more thinking of the lighter botanicals, especially flowers and the fresh green herbs. That’s where the base will have its most effect, whether it can emphasize this or it will almost annihilate them.
I think in the UK, we have this quite famous story now about Sipsmith who used to have, their base was a barley base, and they changed it to wheat. They didn’t tell anyone and probably were quietly hoping that it would pass unnoticed, but they got a lot of feedback from their customers that did notice the difference. So there is a clear difference in the base, even if you go to a gin and a gin tonic.
That was the gin part. Now if you’re going to dilute with tonic, you have to realize that the base will also interact with the tonic. Tonic is quite bitter. So now if you make a gin and tonic with a gin that is quite sweet, by nature has a sweet undertone for example grape or sugar cane based, if you compare the gin and tonic with the same botanicals made from rye, you’re going to have a completely different drink. So that kind of answers that question.
There’s a lot of variety in the base spirit. I’m not saying that you’re going to taste the sugar cane in your gin and tonic, but it will have an effect not just on the flavor but also on the texture, on the depth and on the integration of the different botanicals. And then the interaction with the tonic as well, obviously.
Why would you be choose a particular type of base spirit or NGS?
When choosing a base or an ethanol, why use this one, not the other one? There’s a few considerations that you have to make. I think first of all, I think it’s clear from the presentation and many people in the industry will agree, that not all ethanol is the same even though the law suggests that it’s organoleptically neutral. So you shouldn’t taste a difference, but actually you can. This actually touches on my second point that I want to make is that the aspects of the ethanol are more than just flavor, because many people focus on flavor and not much else. But actually, you also have to consider aroma, then the texture and then also the depth of your ethanol.
So, starting with the aroma, if you consider that the nose and the mouth are connected to each other, you can imagine that a lot of the flavor that we have or the taste that we perceive is actually influenced by the smell. You might have the experience where you had a cold and your nose is blocked and you think, “Oh my god, the food doesn’t taste of anything.” But there’s nothing wrong with your mouth and there’s not nothing wrong with the food, it’s just your nose is blocked. You can’t smell it, and suddenly you’ve got a whole different experience of your meal. And the same is true for ethanol. So if you think here, for example, about the grape-based ethanol, it’s got a fantastic aroma. It’s all about green fruit, flowers. It’s a very pleasant aroma that really puts you in the mood to enjoy your drink.
Another aspect is the texture. By texture, what I mean here is the mouth feel. Notorious for this is potato. Potato vodka is nothing like any other vodka. It is got a velvety, smooth feeling, which can also soften the alcohol, the bite of the alcohol that you might have when you have a drink, whether that’s neat or in a cocktail, specifically think about a cocktail when you have quite a lot of alcohol in there but you don’t want a burn in your throat. If you use this type of vodka or ethanol, you’re going to have a different experience compared to wheat for example.
That also leads us to the next one, which is the depth of the ethanol. This, again, is about a taste experience, not just the flavor. You can imagine the wheat has got quite sharp entry and exit as well. It’s almost like a bang, while you have potato and also grape, to a certain extent it’s more elongated. So you get more of an aftertaste. And again, think about integrating this in a cocktail. That can be quite attractive or quite a nice experience to have that.
So yeah, if you think about feedstock, don’t just think about flavor, think about the whole package. It’s not just flavor, it’s a lot more.
Then of course in the end you are going to have to decide where you’re going to use your alcohol for or what you’re going to use it and how you use it. Is it meant to be consumed neat? Are you going to use mixes with loads of liquids and very sweet and aggressive, or quite elaborate flavors? Is it for an RTD? Maybe only at 4-5%? Maybe thinking about also where the tastes are all quite subtle? Or maybe it’s for cocktails that are quite heavy on the alcohol, so not much water and ice, just a lot of the alcohol is present. You want to give that a bit more attention as well.
There’s quite a number of examples here that I could give you. For example, the potato vodka is quite bold, stands up really well in an Espresso Martini, also in cocktails where you use quite a lot of citrus or ginger. Think about the Moscow Mule, that works really well. It doesn’t work that well with very sweet cocktails, say for example a Porn Star Martini, that’s probably much better with the wheat alcohol there.
If you have the sweeter bases like grape or sugar cane, they will work quite nicely with the bitter counterpart. I’m thinking about gin tonic for example. That works really well. If you think about creating a gin and tonic, look at what base to use. Then again, you have to have in mind what kind of botanicals do I want to use? Is this going to work together? Are you going more in a savory direction? Are you going citrus forward? You have to make these decisions and maybe try a few different ones. That’s always a good idea.
Then something else I wanted to share with you, my favorite cocktail is Negroni. I would say I always think that the gin makes the Negroni. I challenge you to do this when you have an opportunity, if you make three different Negronis with three different gins, and I’m talking about gins made from a different base, say with a similar botanical build, say juniper forward, maybe citrus oriented. And if you make the three different Negronis, they will be all completely different.
And in the end, the question I think is important is when you taste your drink, are you going to taste the components? Are you going to have hints of vermouth or Campari or the gin, or are you going to taste Negroni? That’s when you have your perfect integrated cocktail. I think the base can do a lot to help this integration of the other spirits in your cocktail.
So yeah, I think as a conclusion to this chat with Charlie, here, I think what we have to recognize first of all is ethanol is not all the same. It’s not just a chemical. There is a choice. Then you have to have in mind the application that you want to do. And then of course, as I said many times, it’s not just about flavor. There’s more to the ethanol than flavor only. There’s also the aroma, et cetera.
But in the end it’ll be the consumer that decides what he see or they like, and that’s okay. There’s variety, there’s difference and it’s nice to explore these things. If there are more questions, please go ahead. I think it’s a good time.
AUDIENCE Q&A
Much does the ethanol choice play in decision making process when distilleries are formulating a new product?
It’s a tricky one in the end because often people talking to us, they will say, “Okay Bert, can you send me a sample of the grape, and a sample of the potato, and a sample of the cane, and a sample of the wheat?” Then they end up with wheat. There is understandable reason because as I mentioned, wheat is popular, available, it’s fairly cheap compared to the others, others can be a bit more expensive.
And then also volume. The starting distilleries can’t maybe commit to large volumes so they’re almost limited to the available or the popular choices. If you have a larger distillery or you have guaranteed sales, you can actually venture into quite exotic bases, maybe spelt or quinoa, superfoods.
But at the same time we also find that distillers, they’re quite creative and sometimes they mix two different bases together. The way that it happens sometimes is that they might make a distillation in one form, make a concentrate, and then dilute it with a different style of ethanol to add the different aspects of the ethanol to it. That’s really nice to see this creativity going on. I think it’s clever. I think it’s really clever because you make a unique product and you take advantage of all the strong points or the points that you like of a particular base without going full out, 100% off one base.
Charlie Pountney:
Can you get away without using a dimethyliser when producing wheat GNS?
Yes, you can. You don’t need the dimethyl column per se, but then at the same time, if you don’t use the dimethyl column, it means that your main column is quite robust and probably quite tall. I think it depends on how much methanol you find in your GNS after distillation. I know several people who don’t use the dimethylizer, but then depending on the feedstock, I know definitely potato is an issue. Some people who use grapes as well, they use a dimethyl column just to make sure they can get everything out. It depends how you set up, really.
The purity of water is very important, the more impure it is, will you need to rectify out those impurities: minerals, magnesium, iron, et cetera?
Yes. And this is the water that I assume… When you make or buy GNS, there would be very little water in there, maximum 4%, probably a bit less. Now, of course, if you start redistilling your liquids, say to make gin, you’re going to dilute to, I don’t know, say 50% ABV. Then you’re adding water. And it’s true that the water that you add, it should be ideally demineralized water. Some people use reverse osmosis water. Of course you have to make sure it doesn’t go too far the other way. But, you’re right.
Then at the same time, people when diluting sometimes they use particular water. It’s also part of their marketing. So they will use filtered water from, for example Silent Pool, they use the water from the lake there behind them. Some people even import water to add to the liquid.
It can also give some more authenticity, or a marketing angle to be part of the story if you have clean water at hand, especially the Scottish distillers will be proud to say they use Scottish water.
But you’re right, yeah, the purity of the water, I think it’s a bit like the ethanol, it’s a minimum. You need a minimum purity of the water. And then I think you’re good to go after that. In the end, you are adding water to ethanol, which is quite a strong cleaning agent. So you’re probably going to be quite safe as long as you use water not just from the tap.
What actually makes a sweet base spirit?
Good question, and it’s a fair question as well. In terms of the sweeter profiles, we are looking at grape, sugar cane, but also sugar beet. These, after distillation, there won’t be any sugar left. So it’s not the same as refined sugar. Just to be clear, there is absolutely no sugar in ethanol.
What you do detect is the aroma. As I mentioned before, if you have a sweeter smell, a sweeter perception, that is going to reflect in the taste. Even though there’s no sugar present, you will still experience a sweeter product. And that’s mostly driven by the aroma, especially for grape. I invite you to try a grape ethanol or grape vodka or grape gin, you will find that the sweetness is quite pleasant. That would be more driven by the aroma rather than the sugar content because there isn’t any.
Fantastic. I think that’s well done, everyone. Thank you for all your questions. So thank you everyone for joining. We hope that you found that interesting and in informative, big thank you to Bert for all his input there.
